I was driving home from work, when my phone rings. It is from a friend whom I haven't heard from in a long time. He was asking me why I pick on the church so much. He wanted to know if I still believed in Jesus. He asked if I was hurt by the church or what was it that was making me so angry. What did the church do to me that was so bad?So I thought for a while, hmmm maybe I was wrong. I mean after all there are good things going on in the church each Sunday. People getting together, singing, hearing messages, no drinking or cussing, rarely is there nudity, people dressed up and looking nice. Children walking up to the front to listen to a story just designed for them. Choirs singing, ushers ushering, preachers preaching. What am I so upset about? This is good stuff. Parking lots are clean, people parking their cars and walking into a beautiful building. Mellow out, Tony. What is the problem, dude?
I then started thinking why am I so upset with people who go to seminary? I mean after all they are high achievers and very successful in a very stressful arena. It isn't easy to leave the real world and be couped up studying for 3 to 4 years and get a Masters in Theology. Then to go on and get a Doctorate. I am not sure what a doctorate is but many are getting them. My brother in law and father in law both have Ph.Ds. I am not sure why they didn't get a doctorate.
The phone call really shook me up. A Shakabuku of sorts, a swift, spiritual kick to the head that altered my reality forever.
There is nothing dangerous here! Why don't I keep my mouth shut and just go along with the program. Someone once told me that I look at the glass as half empty and they prefer to see the glass as half full. I should begin to appreciate that the glass is not chipped or that the water is not polluted, or has teeth in it. Yeah, that is what I will do, go along...
Then I woke up.
26 comments:
It's unfortunate people sometimes associate disillusionment with the church with loss of faith in Jesus.
The authors of the gospels thought it important to mention that Jesus spent a fair amount of time expressing disappointment in the religious status quo.
Ah...I rarely get in to these arguments. It takes time and energy away from being with people who have needs the church is not meeting.
It was the questioning of your belief in Jesus that hooked me.
As they say in the ghetto, "For reals. That ain't right, son."
"It's unfortunate people sometimes associate disillusionment with the church with loss of faith in Jesus."
Well, the church is (supposed to be) the body of Christ, so unless you radically separate Jesus and the church, disillusionment with the latter almost certainly reflects a loss of faith in the former. As though somehow Christ isn't big enough to work in the denominations or institutions even in their present state.... Talk about having bad doctrine.
"Well, the church is (supposed to be) the body of Christ..."
Sorry, I just thought it was worth repeating.
Oh, did I say the church, is not the body of Christ. Um, it is these kind of hyper-sensitivity reactions that limit the scope of the conversation.
Gee wiz Tim, are you for real? Bad doctrine of whom? Me or Luther, Calvin, etc... Get out of the books and smell the Dr. Pepper.
Reformation is not a one time issue. Unless of course your identity depends on it.
As I've been reading this series of posts I've grown more confused. If not by the arguments made, certainly by the heated tone of the conversation. A lot of specific examples have been offered, but I won't address most of them.
At first Tony, you critiqued the inclination of people and groups who rely on their doctrine more than on the Spirit or the Bible. It was hard for me not to read it as if you were drawing a hard distinction between the Bible and doctrine. I think that is a case of false alternatives. I believe that the Bible is inspired and authoritative, but that belief is a doctrine. I hope my doctrines are biblically supported and thus are always open to challenge. I affirm the Spirit's role in writing the books of the Bible, in guiding the early Church to decide what was included in the Bible, and in the ongoing illumination of the Bible as people read them.
Doctrine as a concept is neutral, in my opinion. The matter is whether we have good or bad doctrine. Those who fought slavery based on their read of the Bible employed good doctrine. Those that upheld slavery based on their read of the Bible used bad doctrine.
There has been a strong debate over denominations, but I'm not sure what exactly is being debated. Tony made claims that denominations should have a shelf life and has gone to great lengths to say that he is not against denominations. Al wondered, rather eloquently in my opinion, what was the alternative to denominations that Tony suggests? My request is for clarity. Over the years Tony has criticized the maintenance of the institution for the sake of maintaining the institution and I assume these posts fall within that larger critique, which I think is a reasonable one.
What I see in peoples' responses is a concern that Tony might be setting Jesus as something altogether different than the Church. When I've read these posts, I too have wondered if Tony was saying just that, which is why I would like more clarity on these points. Contrary to my Catholic brothers and sisters, I do not hold the Church to be infallible or to be confused with Jesus. The claims of others that they like Jesus but not the Church should sober us all. At the same time, I agree with everyone here that the Church is the body of Christ and cannot be divorced from him. To bring in some older brothers in the faith, I want to quote Cyprian who said, "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother." The reformers also said, "The Church is reformed and always reforming." I think we need to hold onto both of these statements.
I disagree with the idea that seminary is any less real than any other part of the world. When I was in seminary, it was certainly different than other areas of life, but I don't think it makes it less real. It didn't feel less real than when I lived in Sanger, worked at Calvin Crest, was a student leader with InterVarsity, worked with the mentally ill in college, was a drug and alcohol counselor with the Salvation Army in urban Sacramento, or now as I work in an office of a church planting and community development organization. All of my seminary training may not relate to all areas of life, but then again neither did my time helping men try to beat their addictions. All these experiences have shaped me and I believe God was working through them, guiding me. My obedience wasn't perfect, but I'm learning.
Am I for real? I have been attending a seminary, which according to you is not the real world. I suppose it's far easier to criticize the failures of the church/denominations/institution from the comfort of your commute up Calvin Crest Road, where you have trees to look at, than from mine down Interstate Five, where billboards advertise breast augmentation for $3000. Is that the real world about which you are so concerned? I hope that it would be, that you'd be more constructive with respect to everything that ails the world, but you seem content to denigrate the church and its denominations, the institution, people who serve on committees, those who worked in the kitchen before Sean, etc., etc., etc. What do you offer as an alternative, as Al has asked for? A revolution? I'm inclined to quote Bono from Rattle & Hum on the revolution, but I think I'll go with The Beatles:
You say you want a revolution....
You say you got a real solution...
You tell me it's the institution...
You'd better free your mind instead.
Far worse than whether or not one's identity depends on the perpetuation of reformation theology is the fact that in our society one's identity often depends on what money can purchase. That doctrine is central to many Angelenos. It will take a lot to counter that doctrine, let alone replace it with something better, something like the image of God. I put my nose in books because what I smell is not DP, but materialism run wild. I study theology that I may be able to offer another Way, Truth, and Real Life to those I encounter. So, theology is where I have been called. Others are called to serve within the denominations, on committees, at seminaries, in kitchens, etc., etc., etc. The thing is, I know you have a heart for these people; what I have a hard time with is that you are quick to denigrate what they do rather than come alongside them to offer constructive criticism that is clear, comprehensive, and compelling. We all fail. But if you are quick to denounce the denominations, committees, and the study of doctrine at seminaries without offering an alternative which emphasizes their strengths while avoiding their weaknesses, your criticisms will be taken as rants against those things rather than a "real world" solution that takes into account the complexities involved. Nobody said it was easy.
OMG! I was a litle taken back as I was reading that post...then you woke up. People question the clarity of statements and whatnot (maybe justly so) people, its called ADD. I know that we dont all get to work on the mountain, but Tony still loves jesus (I do too). Lets all take a colective breath...1,2,3, ahhhhhh. Much better.
Once I saw two squirrels hooking up. Very traumatic.
Oh, Timbo, it is good to hear from you again.
People question the clarity of statements and whatnot (maybe justly so) people, its called ADD
Geoff, I think that the questioning of clarity is justified, ADD or no. The reality is, whether anyone likes or dislikes, that the views expressed in this blog reflect Calvin Crest in a big way, I just don't believe there is any way around it. Tony, for better or worse, is a figure-head for Calvin Crest (as are others), and what he says on the Internet influences pastors, parents, and potential and past staff, just to name a few. I think it's a huge responsibility where clarity and thoughtfulness (possibly even restraint) are paramount. Now granted, I rarely read this blog, but when I do, I too grow concerned about the direction of the theology and in turn, the direction of Calvin Crest's theology. And I know that I am not alone. But many times I am unsure what is really being said, and maybe that's what makes me the most uncomfortable-- the not understanding. So perhaps, what readers need is more clarity to begin with or, if that isn't possible, more patient explanation following.
If any of that makes sense.
It does, Joy, but I could use a little more clarity.
This is the first time I have ever written on a blog, so excuse my inexperience.
Joy, I, too, find it a bit uncomfortable. I don't know Tony but I have been reading his rant and railings for the past five years and I find him to be a little disconcerting.
Last year I heard that there were buddhists working on his staff. His tolerance for people without reformed theology or even christian doctrine is a little upsetting and I have made some phone calls to key people at the regional office. Someone told me, there are people on staff who smoke, go to bars, and I have even heard there have been people who get tattoos. Last year, I hear from a friend who's next door neighbor's step son attended a camp where there were a mixture of believers and people from a rescue mission. The boy came back and said how could he learn about Jesus with those people there. I also heard that he orchestrated the previous executive director's demise.
Is that what we want to have going on at Calvin Crest. I, like Joy, have concerns that Tony is too open to the spirit and not enough concerned about what impression that all leaves on us, the readers.
Telling people that they shouldn't have a theology is just wrong. How can you be a christian if you don't have a theology? And calling for abolishing any church that is associated with a denomination or as he calls them demons, tells me he is not a christian at all.
His liberal agenda is all set to take effect soon. That is why my church goes to Hume Lake.
To anonymous...
Leaving such a post without putting your real name takes very little courage.
--John Sloas (my real name)
This all breaks my heart.
Where inflammatory, insecure words have been allowed to be used as responses...
Where biting humor and crude inferences have taken the place of seeking understanding...
This, the posts, the responses, the retorts, is tearing at the seams of community.
May mercy be spoken here...
First Anonymous (not John Sloas -- how's it going, by the way?),
I think you've misread me and the others who have voiced concern regarding the arguments made about doctrine, denominations, etc. I'll speak only for myself in this comment.
I haven't been connected to Calvin Crest's ministry in any up to date fashion for a few years and thus I'm not responding to any rumors. I responded to what I read on this blog.
I believe it's another case of false alternatives to argue one either supports denominations or one supports outreach to and discipleship of those on the margins as your second paragraph insinuates. There is nothing inherent to denominations as a concept that prevents the discipleship you appear to support.
The issue of caring for those on the inside to the exclusion of others is not an uniquely denominational problem. It seems to me to be a sociological reality of any group. The Church needs to fight that tendency. It is surprising how quickly that temptation emerges in groups. The first half of the book of Acts seems to me to be a story of how the Church had to fight the inclination to become insular. Thank God they did and may those stories of the Spirit moving within their midst and prodding them beyond their prejudices continue to inspire us.
(Perhaps I am misreading you. If so please correct me. Sarcasm has its place, but it's hard to tease out what you stand for when all you offer is sarcasm toward others' views.)
I'm having a hard time finding the threat from Tony's question.
Can anyone tell me what the value is of a denomination today? Can it be replaced?
I have to post in between classes, but my best friend (Micah Qualle for anyone that knows him) just finished his thesis to become a licensed therapist. The topic dealt with the things that support religious faith in the developmentally (cognitively) disabled. One of the sections is spot on in regards to these questions. I'll post it as soon as I can.
too open to the spirit?!
Gah!! Anonymous! Your comment surely can't be for real. Perhaps you are a master of stirring pots??
I worked up at Calvin Crest in the early 90's - I had a tattoo at that time. A cute little one, if I say so myself. Certainly I've had many struggles with my Christian journey. But my tattoo? Uh...it had no influence over said journey!
Buddhists, smokers, the indigent....oh my. Perhaps they should hire a Samaritan this summer, no?
Lara
Well...
I don't know if I can begin to answer or should answer some of these. Joy? Anonymous? Wow. My theology is pretty clear, it is my affiliations that are in question?
Dr. Kevin Reimer (from Azusa Pac., Cory) studies moral and spiritual experience that stands outside of traditional cognitive understanding. In his work with the L'Arche communities that I know many of you in the conversation up to this point are familiar with, he found that the developmentally disabled there and their caretakers both participated regularly in "The Candle Ceremony." Each member would hold a candle, offer praise, prayer, requests for prayer, scripture, etc. As the candle is passed, each member gets to see the expression of God amongst the different expressions of God in the life of their brothers and sisters. The point of interest for Reimer was the depth to which the developmentally delayed were able to engage the material. Taking into account the stages cognitive development they displayed,it was deeper than the widely accepted stage theories of development would allow.
So how?
Long and short, the hypothesis to explain the dissonance is that being able to engage in the ceremony and allow their brothers and sisters to attend to the cognitive pieces corporately instead of trying to manage all the information individually structured it all in a way that the developmentally delayed members were able to engage in the ceremony on the same level as the others.
Basically when we work on things with others, regardless of our current ability and their current ability, we have a much greater capacity to do so. This could be faith development, wrestling with ideas much like is being done here, or managing assets.
Of course doing something corporately does not necessitate a denomination. Just a co-op.
On a small scale, this blog is the perfect example of why doing church in concert with other worshipping bodies is important.
Or we could look at 2 Cor 8:15. Micah goes on with that in the section after the one I just mentioned a bit. It's a great paper---that's why I'm pushing it.
As an unabashed supporter of Calvin Crest AND tonyb I am encouraged that unchurched folks are actively welcomed (not tolerated) at Calvin Crest amongst a staff that is liberally open to the Spirit. (Is that the same as overflowing?). I am also pleased to hear that a smoking tattooed buddhist could be served by, and thus exposed to, Jesus loving loving people such as Tony. I think Jesus was likely a LOT better looking than Tony, but you have to admit, there is more than a slight behavioral resemblance.
Thank you my friend.
Tony,
Obviously I'm the one not making sense. The entire point of my comment was that sometimes it's hard to interpret your theology because of the ways in which you express it (aka: sometimes things get lost in translation) and maybe that's where the confusion and apprehension lie.
But, obviously "anonymous" twisted and put a lot of words in my mouth that I never said or implied. "I, like Joy, have concerns that Tony is too open to the spirit" ? Really, I mean, how loaded and absolutely caustic can you get? I know I should be more mature than to have my feelings so hurt by an anonymous blog commenter, but at the moment I can't help it. Plus, I'm disappointed that I never got to meet this Buddhist.
All the best,
Joy
To my brother/sister in Christ... anonymous...
I have always found joy in the way that the Lord has renewed, healed, and transformed those that he has brought and entrusted us with. He has brought us the tatooed, the bar visiters, the pierced, the meek, the mourners, the poor in spirit, the peacemakers, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart,...but all of these are perhaps just labels. I don't know of the rumors, I don't know of what people say, but I only know what I see and experience as I have been here the last nine years of my life. We speak and live as disciples of Jesus. We can be perceived as a ragtag bunch as we are a mixture of people ranging from all levels of socioeconomics, ethnicities, educations, struggles, etc... But there is one thing that we all stand on and that is that through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection we have been redeemed through him. Our desire is to share that and serve those as Jesus taught us to serve.
If you have found a good place at Hume Lake I bless you in that. My prayer is that the Lord would use camping ministry to be a catalyst to the changes that need to be in the world. So if that is Hume Lake for you and your kids I hope that you experience the things of the Lord there.
But please know that Calvin Crest rests on the truth of scripture, the guiding of the holy spirit, and the salvation that only comes through jesus...
...and that these truths reside and are internalized by leadership here as well as operation and program staff...
Luke 14:15-24 (NIV)
15When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, "Blessed is the man who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God."
16Jesus replied: "A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.'
18"But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.'
19"Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.'
20"Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.'
21"The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.'
22" 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.'
23"Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. 24I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.' "
Janice--
I read your posts three times. Maybe four.
Every time I read them, I liked the more.
So yeah...now I am sitting here with joy in my heart... thinking about the fact that you are mentoring my daughter.
Post a Comment