I have to tell you something and I hope I don't lose a lot of credibility but I was joking about it being my mom. My mom is in the midst of dementia and wouldn't know what end of the mouse is what. I thought the issue was silly. I agree it is important to sign your name on the document, but it doesn't negate the question.
The issue, for many of you, was the anonymity of the commenter and not what was asked. I came back with my thoughts and few if any commented on what I said, but the concern stayed with what was the name of the commenter. I said I didn't care and you pressed about the name. And then when I threw my mom into the mix the dialogue broke down.
Those were real questions and no one cared about the answers or the questions. There is something about that. I wasn't offended. I appreciated James' kind words, and other's defense but many people have accused me of the questions raised and no one asked me if it was true. Or how I felt during this time.
Some don't what me to ask questions of the institution because they think I am attacking it, some feel like the place I have is to bring feelings of camp to them, some what to just see things that make them feel good.
I don't feel good, I am not a big fan of camps that just entertain and never bring up questions of what is happening in the world and what is the Christ-response. I am writing this blog to ask real questions, bring out real issues, try to get people who I love and have a relationship to follow the will of Christ to allow the Kingdom to come on earth as it is already in heaven. I am concerned about the hell that people live in now that the institution never deals with except to make sure they don't become ordained. I see young men and women, who come to this camp, share their life stories and when I ask have they ever shared any of this with the youth group they look at me like I am asking them to have a reporter put it on the front page of the local news paper. They tell me the last place they are safe is in the church. Huh?
We tend to be about being clever and not significant.
Timbo, you asked where can you send the six dollars that you didn't spend on nachos:
World Vision
P.O. Box 9716, Dept. W
Federal Way, WA 98063-9716
Dakota House
203 W Dakota Ave
Fresno, CA 93705
Invisible Children
2705 Via Orange Way, Suite B
Spring Valley, CA 91978
Save Darfur Coalition
Suite 600
2120 L Street NW
Washington, D.C. 20037
Just to name a few...
26 comments:
This whole thing is too delicious.
What you've written here is very true. It seems like we make this too complicated too much of the time. Scripture, on the other hand, is starkly simple. Defend the fatherless and the widow. Learn to do good.
We're worried about whether we're all ganging up on the institution too much?
As for the six bucks. I'm enamored with Blood:Water mission because I just came across it. Headed up by one of Whitworth's finest because calling and opportunity met in the Spirit.
For the record, I'm not bragging about Whitworth. Precious few come from that privileged school with the combination of right words and right posture.
Communication is difficult. That many believed it really was Tony's mom should reinforce that it's important what we say and how we say it.
I had a problem with the anonymity regardless of whether Tony did. I appreciated his response and the questions posed (which I do care about contrary to what was stated), but I don't need to let something drop because it doesn't bother Tony. Charges/questions about Tony, and camp, affect those of us who have had our lives changed at camp. I believe God used "camp", Tony, others, and the Boortz's in particular, to maintain the faith of myself and key members of my family. It is Tony's blog to be sure, but the issues raised about camp, the institution and the rest affect all of us in different ways and I suspect Tony is open to us jumping in even if we don't always see it as he does.
Speaking of the institution, I don't think it's a matter of being worried about ganging up on "it" as if it's merely an abstract concept or blueprint. The "institution" is people, imperfect and failing, and we are either imperfect and failing members of it or imperfect and failing critics (or perhaps, most hopefully, critical members).
I didn't attend Whitworth, but have met many people who I admire who did. I don't doubt it has its faults, it is an "institution" after all. I wonder, though, how confident any of us can be as to how many or few of the Whitworth folks will, in the long run, find that right combination. Such a judgment is surely not as simple as knowing scripture tells us to care for the widow and the orphan.
"Those were real questions and no one cared about the answers or the questions. There is something about that. I wasn't offended. I appreciated James' kind words, and other's defense but many people have accused me of the questions raised and no one asked me if it was true. Or how I felt during this time.
I did not answer the questions because I felt you gave better answers than anyone outside your position could.
As to not asking if it was true, I am not sure what I would have asked. What would we have asked was true?
I regret if you felt I or others did not ask how you were feeling in the midst of this.
The questions were difficult to interpret without context. The lack, of an author made a real difference. If it was from your mother, they meant something else entirely than if they were from a 22 year old male ex-staffer who is friends with the mysterious counter calvin crest crowd.
How should we interpret the question, "Haven't you caused enough trouble in the last three years?" To what is this referring? How could we answer or engage that question?
Or, "Should you be in the position you are in and have these opinions that you so freely give?" What would I ask is true about this? How would I respond to it? It is a challenge veiled in a question. 'You should not be in the position you are in and give these opinions so freely.' I can't think of an answer to that other than your own.
"Have you made any difference by being in camping instead of the real world?" This question doesn't seem to be asking anything. It is seems only to be stating that camp is not the real world. I could answer that claim but it would just make me tired. Are you accomplishing anything significant? Yes. I have always felt Calvin Crest was one of the most significant ministries I have ever seen or been a part of.
"Sean said...
This whole thing is too delicious. "
In what regard?
I'm very sorry that your mother is in the grips of dementia, Tony. It is, in my experience, an insidious disease that is at best insanely draining and at worst downright devastating for everyone involved.
I appreciate that you ask the tough questions of the things we hold most dear, I think that's a valuable quality to have in a leader. Even more so, I appreciate that you willingly take those questions on yourself to be examined and live transparently.
I am curious, though, why you feel that nobody cared about the answers to the questions posed by the anonymous poster. I am now thoroughly confused as to who wrote them in the first place, but unless (and even still if) it was you who posted them, I'm sure that Anonymous cares very much about both. As do I, I had hoped to make it clear, but my rhetorical skills are often not efficient enough for effective communication through blog comments.
The answer that I am interested in, however, does not involve the legitimacy of the commenter's claims but the reality of their apparent pain. What you do when faced with that pain, for me, speaks loudest in response to any accusations hurled against you.
To oblige your perceived request, meanwhile, in 5-10 word answers please respond:
Is it true that you should hold your current post at Calvin Crest Conferences?
Is it true that you have made a real and lasting impact on the world through your life and work at Calvin Crest Conferences?
Is it true that you have caused more than enough trouble in the last three years and should stop?
And:
How does it feel to have everything you have worked for and through be called into question?
I have not always been your biggest fan, Tony, but I do fully believe that you are where you need to be and that the work being done through your service is great and that you take it very seriously. Again, thank you for following the example of leadership which includes vulnerability, transparency and honesty.
Tony. You trickster.
Nonetheless I stand by everything I said. It's still all true.
Thank you for putting Dakota House on such a noble list.
Bill - it's not that I don't see the sincerity of the whole situation, but until now I was just an observer and I was truly enjoying watching the whole thing unfold. Hopefully that doesn't seem to shallow.
Micah - I'm a Whitworth grad and I love the school for the way it helped refine me and I am brokenhearted over what I still hope it can be. It's merely a conflicted emotion - one that I usually keep to myself because I'm afraid of appearing too critical. For whatever reason I shared it this time.
Sean: We are to understand, then, that you are the anonymous poster? Or did I misread your response?
Sorry but no. When I referred to "this time" I was only talking about the first comment I left on this post .
If I had been, we all could have collectively said, "The plot thickens...."
Well, in any case, I think that conflicted emotions are a healthy thing as long as they're allowed to be explored. It can be difficult to find the appropriate way to express them, but I'm a firm believer in people giving voice to their emotions. Especially the conflicted types.
I agree, Micah...
Micah, you get where I'm coming from, which is very admirable in this odd online universe. Thank you.
"Such a judgment is surely not as simple as knowing scripture tells us to care for the widow and the orphan."
actually, it is.
& secondly, i really feel that people should watch more Scrubs. if you can't laugh at life a little...well...
"Scripture, on the other hand, is starkly simple. Defend the fatherless and the widow. Learn to do good. "
To what are you referring here, Sean and Julie? Is this a summation of scripture? If it is, don't you find it troubling that this would apply to nearly any world faith? Is the Christian life as revealed in scripture nothing more than go and try to live an ethical life?
Or are you saying that this is scripture's answer to some particular issue that we have talked about here?
If I can weigh in here. That is a part of what I am trying to say in these past few posts. Bill, I think that is what Christ is calling us to and not away from. I don't hear much from the EV church about this. I am not sure what you are asking or inferring by if that is a summation of scripture. Christ boiled it down to love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. What more are you wanting to add?
And no I don't find it troubling, what I find troubling is EV christianity is not talking about this more and doing something even more than that. We reserve that for the lefties...
"Bill, I think that is what Christ is calling us to and not away from. I don't hear much from the EV church about this."
I believe we are in heated agreement on this. I have for a long time had the same critique of the American Church and have been happy to see you come to this perspective.
"Christ boiled it down to love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. What more are you wanting to add?"
With no disrespect to Sean and Julie, Jesus' summation is much more complete, and I don't find it simple. He names YHWH as the object of our devotion. His call to love God is comprehensive. It is what leads us to most forms of worship, study, tithing, and personal devotion.
Loving your neighbor as yourself is quite a bit more complete and difficult to apply than caring for widows and orphans and learning to do good. Figuring out how it applies to each situation in life is a genuine challenge. It is my outworking of this commandment, together with Mennonite professor David Augsburger's pastoral counseling teaching that led me to the words I shared on anonymous criticism.
As to adding to Sean's summation, I have no need to add anything more than Jesus did in the summation you quoted. Jesus, though, saw the benefit of adding to it with many teachings. His sermon on the mount and parable of the sheep and the goats are other examples of his extension of it.
"I am not sure what you are asking or inferring by if that is a summation of scripture."
I was simply asking for a clarification of what Sean and Julie were referring to.
I was never intending a summation of scripture. I was interested by the fact that when the church was challenged, people came rallying in its defense. All I was ever intending to say is that I don't find a call in scripture to defend the church, but to defend the fatherless and the widow. I don't think the church's feelings were hurt, or that it needs us to stand up for it. As Tony already mentioned, the gates of hell will not overcome it.
I would never pretend to be able to summarize scripture into one sentence.
Sean, Thank you. That was the clarification I was asking for.
julie.oldroyd said...
"Such a judgment is surely not as simple as knowing scripture tells us to care for the widow and the orphan."
"actually, it is."
No, it isn't. Judging that the vast majority of a school's graduates are failing their spiritual calling, requires an in-depth knowledge of those people and a certainty about God's standard for success. The only way such a judgment is simple is if Sean meant merely that Whitworth's grads fall short of the glory of God. But that would hardly be worth saying.
I took Sean to mean that he is frustrated by the distance between the reality of what we do and what we're called to do, and because he loves Whitworth he's tough on it. I can understand this and relate to it. At the same time, I still think mass judgments on folks are not simple, and can be spiritually dangerous.
It's hard to balance between wanting the perfection we're called to and realizing we are in an in-between time and won't achieve it.
Finally, I think we'd do well to get a bigger more scienfitic picture of how evangelicals are doing with helping the poor. Tony seems to rely on anecdote after anecdote. These are real and count for something, but for every anecdote about someone NOT doing something, you can find other examples (as Tony has highlighted) of people doing great things. How do we judge when we have personal stories and anecdotes on both sides?
Are we doing enough? Surely not. Are we doing badly? Perhaps, but how do we judge such that we aren't just trading anecdotes?
Im with Sean, the plot thickens...
Caveat: I don't presume to speak for my wife, but in this case I'm going to respond.
Micah, I can say with confidence that when Julie said "actually it is" she was referring to scripture's mandate to care for the widow and orphan, not that it is simple to make a judgment about the graduates of a school. I think this is a case of her misunderstanding what you were referring to which led to misunderstanding what she was talking about, you get the picture.
I think you raise very good questions and make good points that I do take to heart. Thanks for adding to the conversation.
Is there a "finding out" if we're doing enough? I don't think so... maybe by the cultures standards we will be able to tell if we're purpose driven enough or have pushed into life with an understanding of our mind and our heart to a greater extent than others, but really... I think the spirit confirms our obedience, redirects our misguided moments, and let's us know if we are in fact bringing pleasure to holy God. This all while we keep walking, sharing, feeding, teaching, rebuking, and... blogging. Statistics and other human mechanisms are ultimately fallible and would it be appropriate for us to sum up God's desire and then test, test and retest for it.
Thanks Sean, I should have considered that. While in one sense I'm glad for these forums as otherwise the conversation wouldn't take place, sometimes it would sure be easier if we were all sitting around talking over coffee or something.
Michelle, I appreciate your comment. Mark Twain said that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. But I still think there is room for social scientists (disclosure, I guess I'm now a "political scientist") to use stats to figure out how well we're doing and how we can do better. Stats and human mechanisms are fallible, but so is our ability to sum up God's desire. So we try and do our best (stats, for example, can help us figure out where we should focus our efforts, and what methods work better than others).
I just got back from a camp in Western North Carolina - can I ust say how thankful I am for Calvin Crest and for Tony's leadership.
Thank you for your kind words and I appreciated your Facebook statement...
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